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Does the local economy really need someone with brains?
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Boston ITer
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 8:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Does the local economy really need someone with brains? Reply with quote

http://tinyurl.com/2afn6e

Here's an excerpt:

"My background in math and engineering, as well as in molecular biology and medical research, lets me approach problem solving and decision making in life sciences from a broader viewpoint than a more traditionally trained scientist. I'm someone who can see the big picture and help move a company forward. During introductions at talks, I've been described as a sort of "scientific renaissance man." For example, once I was in charge of a small group of highly trained scientists who looked at medical, molecular, and insurance claims data. As a result, we were better able to find new markers for early diagnosis and treatment of several diseases.
But sometimes I consider all my degrees a liability. I've said, "Gee, if I just had a bachelor's degree, I'd have no problem finding a job." Being middle age complicates it more. Many companies are looking for fresh-out-of-school candidates. They can't come out and ask my age, but I'm sure they're thinking I'm no spring chicken and it's going to cost more to hire me. If I'm up for a position that involves some niche, like biostatistics, a hiring director will see my resume and say, "You have a good biostatistical background; we'd like to talk to you." Once I get into the process, they say something like, "We have a round position, a square position, and a rectangular position. You seem to be a triangle." Unfortunately, there are a lot of niche positions. I need someone to recognize that my interdisciplinary experience and background might warrant creating a new position."
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JCK



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:32 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if the Medical, plus PhD, plus Masters (in an unrelated field) makes him less attractive. I'd imagine companies are turned off by the sheer number of degrees this guy has. And now he's getting an MPH as well? Will that really help his job prospects?

It does sound like he has genuine interest in all these fields, but what is a guy like this supposed to be doing? He isn't practicing medicine so no one's going to hire him as a doctor. He isn't a bench scientist any more, so it sounds like a research position it out. He isn't an engineer, so an engineer firm won't hire him.

Jack of all trades and master of none? I don't know what to think about a guy like this.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:22 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Jack of all trades and master of none? I don't know what to think about a guy like this.


I think he's one of those ancillary "Tooth-to-Nail"* persons who can essentially make things happen, on a larger scale, whereas a lot of specialists are involved too deeply in one area, ala one cluster of depts or policies, and can't really see the bigger picture.

The problem is that, in general, those types of individuals need to be independently wealthy because their ideas really aren't of the day-to-day variety that you see in corporations. In addition, I don't think his problems will go away simply by moving to N.C./Research Triangle Park like it has for other professionals in Mass who're out of work. He's too much of a special case.

I know individuals, like the aforementioned, and they seldom move up in a company. Usually, their best ideas are swiped, via social climbing/ shameless self promoters, and they're left essentially doing support work in the end. He should swallow his pride, start getting re-certified in health care (i.e. general internal medicine), and work in a clinic part-time until his profile is more current with the current IM employment scene.

*Note: idea from board regular, John P
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:03 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The McKinsey Group, business consultants, talked about "I's and "T"'s. I's had vertical experience stacked in one discipline and T's were the horizontal bridges who had a broader base. To do both synthesis and analysis it's good to be both. I see an organizational structure like a building (like I see everything sadly) anyway, the vertical columns need to be tied with horizontal beams to create a framed network. I think Human Resources filter out quality people because there might be a checklist that they need to go through. I have had head hunters talk to me and question my broad based background like it was a bad thing. I am a registered architect, a certified city planner, hold an unrestricted construction supervisors license and have an MBA. I'm not so much ambitious as curious and followed my interests. Job descriptions aren't written to align with my skill set because not many people have this array of interests, so even though I could do a variety of jobs, one might question my commitment to one role. I guess that's fair, but hopefully this guy will connect with someone that embraces that sort of mindset.

I think people need to appreciate their roles in society. I mean you don't have to be carrying the ball over the goal line to be part of a touchdown. I'm sure this guy has planted a few seeds in lots of peoples minds and help keep our brain soil fertile. I mean that's more important than any individual work, you know, to help others make connections. I posted something about fluid dynamics. You know every time you sit on the toilet or feel other body function, it is your own body's fluid dynamics and nervous system network. Our bodies know how to do so many things that we don't even realize. It's annoying to me sometimes to not be able to understand a certain mathematical function knowing that my body has a pump or a sensory network that's doing it all the time. It's like you know it but haven't figured it out yet. When you put yourself out there in sort of a daze always trying to follow an inner thesis you have to trust the process and see where it leads. You know when you get a nice smile on your face you just go with it. If you don't want to share and be on your own trip I think the mindspace isn't open to you as much and you can't be as good a conduit for some real coolness. If you let cool ideas flow freely in and out the muses will find you worthy to let you be an instrument. So you do your job as best you can and help the herd get a few more yards closer to the end zone and you've got to be happy with that inside. You might give up making a lot of money, but the heightened state you get from being connected is like having a better sense of smell, taste, so your overall quality of life is better. God gave us a gift to be alive and the more we try to figure what we're all about, the better we appreciate that individual gift that he gave us. It's like being thankful for a giving parent and the more you realize how much you were given the more thankful you become, the more valuable you see that gift. When you see that you still have the capacity to learn more, it's like the beer glass that doesn't go dry and that's a nice glass of beer and is worth more than one that you think is empty and throw aside. Passing through resistance is a trip, you get a sense that you’re not matter but an energy field. If a place has a good energy field, like everyone is cool to each other, I think that it will become a special place. I think Boston is this way for me so that’s why I get mad when cool people are gentrified out of neighborhoods.

Practically, this guy needs to connect with others with his passions and mindset. We're all just protons, neutrons, and electrons sharing the same space and fields. Like my Nana used to say when I was having bad times: "This too shall pass". She's passed away now, but her good spirit, if passed along can help others find their breakthroughs, so send out a few good thoughts for the dude right...
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 4:02 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

John, I love your posts, however, I think you've got to realize, this guy's getting old and soon, he'll be facing tech-centered white collar age discrimination because he isn't in some "MBA-like" role in the corporate hierarchy.

The best thing for him to do is to get re-board certified in internal medicine and start seeing patients. Really, it's not a good thing for an older guy to be working at a 7-11 or rental car company esp when he could be earning a decent living in an AMA-protected profession like medicine.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:23 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
this guy's getting old and soon, he'll be facing tech-centered white collar age discrimination because he isn't in some "MBA-like" role in the corporate hierarchy.


Sounds like one who's seen it all.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:27 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was more speaking about the people who stigmatize the guy for the concept of his background (an intellectual drifter); I mean they are the ones that the story is about in my eyes. Here's a guy who's a top shelf dude (unless he's pinching secretaries asses or something) and he's not being either valued or it points to the fact that the market is saturated with his level and type. Jimi Hendrix got booed when he was opening up for a Monkees concert. An open mind doesn't see categories or boundaries quite as much.... If a seed can't take root in a soil, either there is something wrong with the climate, the soil, or the seed or the way he's spreading his seeds (maybe he's only done 3 interviews in a year and a half). It was a great story because he's smart enough to fill a number of roles productively and Boston claims to be a big tech sector. I think he is one of those formative cell types that might be good in a startup like you mentioned earlier, so maybe these points to the fact that there aren't startups to pick up this loose ball.
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JCK



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:12 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Always hard to know. Maybe he comes across badly in an interview, may he can't explain how he ended where he is.

For some reason, I'm skeptical that this guy's problems are somehow representative of an issue with Boston. We really don't know anything about his "soft" skills. Does he appear professional, how does he present himself, etc. etc.

Again, why is he getting an MPH? To me, that makes no sense, and is a red flag of sorts. Does it mean this guy 43 years old, and has no idea what he wants to do with himself?

My gut feeling is that they're more to this guy's story than we've heard.
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john p



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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 7:07 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know I like you, but I disagree in one regard. Wait, I should start off by saying you're right, that soft skills are extremely important, he might not be a good team player etc. However, these are the negative things that people speculate about when people that have choppy job histories. Some industries are project driven and when the project is over so too is the job. It is the nature of the business. He is on the bleeding edge. There will be a few hedge fund managers out there with him pretty soon.

The kinship I'm projecting on him (take with a grain of salt) is that he seems to be open minded. Closed minded people seem to find a track and stay right on it. This guy seems to have reordered his whole being a variety of times. To some life is a quest for knowledge, an exploration to find out how their existence matters. Some people plug into knowledge and others plug into other people. Sometimes, if a discovery is made or a technology emerges people like him are affected and have the open mindeness capacity to begin anew. Think about how many people spend their lives just falling into what's ever available.

The sad thing is what if he's a really nice guy, and people project that he might have a personality disorder, so some jerk decides that they ought to take him our for a ride and push his limits on an interview.

Last point is, you don't have to be old to be closed minded and being young is a state of mind. This guy seems to be open minded and I doubt he is the old dog that won't learn new tricks. The one thing he has proven is that he has remained fertile.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:40 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

To JCK:

I know other people, like the one in the article, and the key underlying trait is that they're intellectually eclectic and have an ability to synthesize between a lot of variables and disciplines.

The problem is that those people don't last in corporate America. There was a time when a person could get a job at let's say Honeywell, work on various *special* projects, and then be the company know-it-all on lots of areas so that his time could be parceled about the various groups and facilities. And since the parent company cuts his W-2, it isn't a problem with anyone because its a part of some ancillary R&D cost center. Today, those people don't work within a company but as consultants and the problem with that is that companies really don't like to pay someone for something that doesn't have immediate ROI which is why most consultants out there are specialists like SAP programmer, facilities compliance expert, geothermal-seismic technologist, etc. And if they don't have a niche specialty than they're on an MBA track like program manager or operations analyst for a management consulting type of boutique.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:41 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

To JCK:

I know other people, like the one in the article, and the key underlying trait is that they're intellectually eclectic and have an ability to synthesize between a lot of variables and disciplines.

The problem is that those people don't last in corporate America. There was a time when a person could get a job at let's say Honeywell, work on various *special* projects, and then be the company know-it-all on lots of areas so that his time could be parceled about the various groups and facilities. And since the parent company cuts his W-2, it isn't a problem with anyone because its a part of some ancillary R&D cost center. Today, those people don't work within a company but as consultants and the problem with that is that companies really don't like to pay someone for something that doesn't have immediate ROI which is why most consultants out there are specialists like SAP programmer, facilities compliance expert, geothermal-seismic technologist, etc. And if they don't have a niche specialty than they're on an MBA track like program manager or operations analyst for a management consulting type of boutique.
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JCK



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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Boston ITer wrote:
To JCK:

I know other people, like the one in the article, and the key underlying trait is that they're intellectually eclectic and have an ability to synthesize between a lot of variables and disciplines.



I think those are extremely valuable skills. I'm not convinced, however, that getting six post-grad degrees has anything at all to do with these skills. The people who are eclectic, have the ability to synthesize from various fields, etc. don't develop their abilities by acquiring degrees, and degrees don't magically confer this ability onto people who otherwise wouldn't have such skills.

Again, my skepticism is not with people who have these skills. Something smells funny here to me. It's a gut feeling, really. I can be dissuaded of this notion, but why, why why is this guy getting an MPH? He's really doing himself no favors at this point. I'm just trying to understand the mindset.

Quote:
The problem is that those people don't last in corporate America. There was a time when a person could get a job at let's say Honeywell, work on various *special* projects, and then be the company know-it-all on lots of areas so that his time could be parceled about the various groups and facilities. And since the parent company cuts his W-2, it isn't a problem with anyone because its a part of some ancillary R&D cost center. Today, those people don't work within a company but as consultants and the problem with that is that companies really don't like to pay someone for something that doesn't have immediate ROI which is why most consultants out there are specialists like SAP programmer, facilities compliance expert, geothermal-seismic technologist, etc. And if they don't have a niche specialty than they're on an MBA track like program manager or operations analyst for a management consulting type of boutique.


But there is some logic to this. Regardless of what you're doing, as you get higher up in a company, fundamentally, you're running a business. If you don't have those skills, your underlying training may not be that helpful. Any you may max out.

But, at the same time, I don't disagree with what you're saying about corporate culture today, or its general shortsightedness. The cutting of R&D people who don't produce value NOW is certainly a symptom of what you're describing. I'm just not sure what the answer is.

Funny that john was talking about McKinsey as identifying people with vision, but aren't they the ones advocating this type of cost cutting?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

JCK: I wish I had more of your discipline; I sometimes project too much good faith in people and every now and again get let down. I think that guy might come with a bit of risk and if there are other strong candidates who would want to take the chance. I think the bigger problem with the guy is that his career seems to be more of a personal journey and if he was more focused on the bottom line he may have stayed more focused. The crazy thing is that because so few people do what he did, in the right circumstance, he is a specialty and all the bottom line focused people are the commodity. The people who come in and stick the knife when there are going to be layoffs tend to pick the friendly, happy-go-lucky folksy types that seem not to be stone cold serious. The places that do lots of layoffs get a mercenary culture and if the industry gets one, you'll see more startups. The MBA term I was presented for this was called (oddly enough) hygiene factors. If you want a person to work 60hrs a week and wear multiple hats, maybe let him wear more comfortable clothes and bring his dog in, have the ping pong table there.... That was a draw for IT folks to go to startups. Corporate America is way too serious. Serious to a fault. If you want to be the top at what you do you have to love it. Craftsmanship is defined as the expression of a man's joy in his work. The formative Apple Computers culture was like a tribe and they actually looked at people's reactions to technology. They wanted to see the spark, the enthusiasm the love and passion for the subject matter. If, however someone is way off the deep end and just wants to play around and not make money, they should do it in their parent's basement on their own time and dime.

I knew a guy that worked for Bain Consulting and he told me a little thing about consultants "You ask a consultant what time it is, they ask you for your watch, they look at it and then tell you the time, and then keep your watch."

The m.o. for many consultants is to:

First, say that things are a mess and if something isn't done right away the fate of the organization will collapse.

Second, use a handful of simple recycled models that fits nicely on PowerPoint slides and explain the entire organizations problems with them.

Third, interview the people in the organization and get a sense of where the political winds are blowing.

Fourth, do some simple benchmarking against comparable organizations.

Fifth, find a simple solution.

Sixth, empower the person who asked to bring you in. If you promote the person who brought you in, he/she will be the best marketer for you.

Seventh, find a scapegoat (someone who is at odds with your ally) put him in cement shoes and throw him overboard. Fire his entire entourage. Clear out the bad blood and be a mercenary for one coalition.

Mitt Romney has used this technique to get elected as Governor and "Clean up the mess on Beacon Hill". Wait and see, if someone flanks him to the right and things get desperate, he move to the moderate center and will stick the knife into Bush and twist.

My theory is to never make big decisions when you feel weak or afraid, or conversely when you feel too macho. If a realtor or mortgage broker tries to put you into a heightened state, back off and settle down before you say or do anything. If irrational exuberance is what caused the bubble, you need to strive for rational calmness right?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could someone explain to me what this conversation has to do with housing prices?? Should this thread be moved elsewhere?
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 2:30 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
Could someone explain to me what this conversation has to do with housing prices?? Should this thread be moved elsewhere?


I believe that the connection is that they have been talking about the strength and scope of the local economy. There have been some other threads where this has been more explicitly tied into housing prices. I'm inclined to leave the thread here since it is indeed related to economics and the only other place it would fit would be the Open Discussion forum, but I will listen to suggestions.

To ground this discussion more closely to housing prices, I will say that it is relevant for at least two reasons: 1) the potentially shrinking number of high paying jobs and 2) the instability of high paying jobs. Income and the size of the work force both feed directly into house prices. If I were in an industry (and I am) that is susceptible to outsourcing and age discrimination as is being discussed here, I would consciously seek to commit less of my future income to purchasing a house than is normal since there is a very real possibility that my income could decline as I get older (especially in inflation adjusted terms). It is therefore shocking to me that prices in the area were over two standard deviations above their historical relationship to incomes. Who is it that was buying at those prices and what do they do for work?

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