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Why the Boston area will not be a tech leader anymore
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 5:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm concerned about massive centers being downsized in any country, it could be one are of China to another. In Boston, if you lose your job, there is another company you can apply to. I wonder if this will be true in some of these developing countries. If they pull up stakes the people that are dependent on them for their living will be in trouble and might put some political pressure on. The Middle East is a good example of how you can pump money into a place and create a cultural explosion of old school types and western types. This is the resentment that the 9/11 psychos had. That is the dangerous context we were in and we didn't play it right. The lesson from 9/11 should be not to empower unstable regions of the world. This outsourcing will not end at just the "back of house" stuff. It would be a mistake to underestimate some of these developing countries. The whole "Don't worry, we won't steal your business" business is a trap.
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Boston ITer
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:27 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

First of all, I don't think we'd learned anything from 9/11. The lesson was simple, take stock, be grateful for what you have, and finally, be vigilant in what you do. Those are the hallmarks of a strong society. Instead, we had mass panic as if WWIII between the US-USSR had erupted (which would be a lot worse than a couple of towers), a slew of govt screwups (like giving student visas to Atta and others on pre-911 watchlists), unconstitutional laws plus McCarthyism, and hot war incursions in the middle east (unlike during the more stealth cold war with an entire '70s full of Intl terrorism i.e. Carlos).

In the years to come, the former USSR will have far more oil than the middle east as more and more of Siberia comes online but yet, due to Putinism, there'll be very little visible terrorism. Likewise, China will develop along the same lines, but with a broader economy and its system will focus on higher end IP development, manufacturing, etc and push the smaller stuff to their satellite states in Asia or Africa.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:50 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why wouldn't we import oil from Russia? I am sick of the Middle East.
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Boston ITer
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why wouldn't we import oil from Russia?


I don't think it has anything to do with making volumetric purchases. The US can and will buy from Russia, however, unlike in the early 90s, American and British energy conglomerates will not have easy access to either Caspian or Siberian oil assets as they did during prior privitization schemes. So effectively, as time goes by, Russia will be a major market marker and not a crony like the Saudis are today, for the various administrations, which means that the govt will be looking to expand into other sectors, like Canadian sands, etc, so Putin and other ex-Soviet oligarchs can't price fixed/gouge via political pressures on the global scheme. It's pretty obvious, at a certain price, all of Russia's oil is for sale to anyone but who controls that price?
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 1:57 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Too bad, if Russia had their head on straight they could make some big money...
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 6:40 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Boston area needs a place like this

www.rtp.org

This is where the leaders of research can plan and orchestrate a method of maintaining a region's lead in core research and development activities than in hoping for some mindless mantra like "Boston's got MIT why plan a research initiative for 2030?" or how about "real estate only goes up?"

In contrast, North Carolina has the right idea and the only question is long term implementation.

Now, instead of a plan, we have a mythical faith in free market (a.k.a race to the bottom) mechanics which as you know, only leads to a combination of asset bubbles and no real jobs outside of finance-private equity/hedge funds. And unlike the NYC/Tristate region, we don't even have the hedge funds creating jobs.
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Boston ITer
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 8:09 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
we have a mythical faith in free market (a.k.a race to the bottom) mechanics which as you know, only leads to a combination of asset bubbles


Sorry to the classical economists on this board but so-called free markets don't work for mature economies. Companies, who reach for the lowest hanging fruit, will always tend towards lower skilled career tracks, etc for a quick turnaround on money spent. The end result, of course, is a CEO golden parachute followed by an M&A on the company in 5-7 years (and all the work winding up in China/Russia).

If Massachusetts wants to be a leader in technology, it needs to garner the highest fruit mentality which doesn't mean more Fidelitys but more DECs, Boston Scientifics, or Thinking Machines where scientists and other staff can work on the next generation of technologies than let's say a new color or attachment for the iPod. Fidelity is a lowest hanging fruit organization and when they finally leave town, cerca 2009, there'll be a real shock to the region and we'll hear a lot of 'How come?' from those who believed in the value of free markets vs regional planning for the future like our friends down in N.C.
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 1:06 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
those who believed in the value of free markets vs regional planning for the future like our friends down in N.C.


I predict there will be a lot of 'whoa is me' and 'how come?' in the years ahead. The macroeconomics are queued for a deterioration in Mass's non-public/non-health care high wage sectors. This is a true guns 'n butter scenario for the region where if we don't get more federal level contrasts, for defense research and such, the region's pretty much done.
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AgentGrn



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:55 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great ... government surplus butter in a state that is very gun-unfriendly.

Interesting times ahead, to say the least. I'm almost thankful that I don't have a full down payment ready ... just in case I do have to move.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 4:08 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://financial-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Guns+and+Butter+Curve

I'm tired of having to do research to keep up with you guys.
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India Guest
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2007 1:01 am GMT    Post subject: Global flow of capital and labor Reply with quote

MIT Guest wrote:

I am glad to hear that Indian and US wages are as close as you stated, though there are plenty of other countries eager to undercut both of ours, so I think we have a ways to go before we hit an equilibrium. Yes, quality matters and it will be particularly hard for newer entrants to fill the top quality spots, but that just means that our jobs our safe, not necessarily our salaries.


I would disagree partly. Any such labor cost arbitrage would not last more than a few years in today's age of free capital flow across continents. In the case of India, it has taken less than 10 years for wages to sharply jump to a point where the arbitrage is really not significant to a company's overall costs. The following link relates how the biggest Indian outsourcing company (TCS) is now planning to hire 5000 people in Mexico and 1000 people in USA, because of escalating wages in India, and a weakening dollar.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/06/07/tata-mexico-hiring-markets-equity-cx_rd_0606markets4.html

Unlike manufacturing, engineering design and other intellectual work is much harder to perform in "sweatshop" conditions. Particularly high end design with a direct business impact, or needing certification with significant safety aspects, would be quite hard to maintain a noticeable arbitrage over a 5-10 year period. Companies are also becoming wiser to the pitfalls of making decisions purely based on cost, and the buzzword is now becoming "rightsizing". Low-end work which does not require business input, or does not have any statutory implications, may still be subject to arbitrage. Hence my previous comment that people whose fundamentals are not very sound are most likely to be very vulnerable. If they were to go back to college, for a professional certification, talent upgrade, or a business degree, and also demonstrate willingness to be a little flexible in terms of work assignments, they may not be so vulnerable.

However, the concern about wage stagnation in real (inflation-adjusted) terms is quite well-founded in my opinion. This can most definitely have an impact on the projected future earnings, and the amount of income outlay towards a mortgage that can realistically fit into this scenario. "Jumbo" mortgages, option ARMS etc are definitely not a wise choice in my opinion for those concerned about off-shoring. A fixed rate mortgage would appear to be the safest bet, but sadly the prices for reasonable housing seem considerably outside the ambit in that scenario. Looks like there are no easy answers, and waiting, or moving to another state, may be a better option.
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Boston ITer
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:23 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The following link relates how the biggest Indian outsourcing company (TCS) is now planning to hire 5000 people in Mexico and 1000 people in USA, because of escalating wages in India, and a weakening dollar.


The problem is that corporate America overloaded TATA-to-Wipro (Bangalore Inc) with work, starting 2002. It was only inevitable that those with a slew of experiences would eventually become too expensive for the standard price given the fact that there's not enough certified high schools [ I was told that this was a problem with India's educational system ], etc, to get the younger generation, in large numbers, to start coding before graduation.

Now, Romania and Vietnam will start to outbid India for IT work because there's already the communist educational system as well as the drive for foreign investment to build up IT centers.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 1:05 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm a bit out of my realm here, but I like to take advantage of having some smart people paying attention so here are a few questions:

Isn't the emerging market in China and India going to be a hungry economy to fuel, just to serve itself? I mean aren't the Chinese companies more concerned about having a dominant role in their own local market than to serve us? I understand that the profit margins are much higher when you're serving/exporting to a higher cost of living area, but as the dollar weakens and their market grows, do you think the focus might be to win the local markets? I'm interested to know the current state and the future trend if anyone has thoughts. It's interesting to hear that an Indian company is outsourcing to Mexico. Have margins will travel...
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Boston ITer
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 8:38 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
but as the dollar weakens and their market grows, do you think the focus might be to win the local markets? I'm interested to know the current state and the future trend if anyone has thoughts.


John, this is correct in the case of Greater China. China will have both domestic middle class markets as well as consumers abroad. In contrast, India's entire economic miracle was a result of American (and now European) based business process outsourcing where essentially, white collar jobs in backoffice support were being done in Bangalore instead of in higher wage economies from London to San Fran. This is not a sustainable model in contrast with let's say China, who's also investing in lower wage Vietnam but is also attempting to grow a middle class. The end result is that cheaper functions like IT support, etc could be done in Vietnam but research and development practices could flourish on the mainland and in this situation, the labor arbitrage doesn't blow up in China's face because it uses the communist educational model to create tons of semi-educated workers and at the same time, doesn't allow a professional class to emerge who'll command their own wages.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:48 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

You know some of these countries have billions of people so I wonder if you'll find say 100 million have one strategy and another 100 million have another. I wonder if it is hard to judge what direction so many people will go. I'd imagine that there might be a prevailing direction but with so many people, it will spread out in a ton of different directions and it is a matter of what the size and shape of the economic fallout zone will be. I think it might be too broad to judge in simple terms.

I think the language and numbering barriers might continue to keep economies partitioned off to some degree. I think that although we speak different languages with many countries, many use the same numbers so at least math is the common language. I guess computer code is as well to some degree. How broad is the computer coding language and are there any major language problems?

As far as a company paying a premium to be in Boston, I wonder because we have a stable base of talent, a secure banking system, and it is a safe environment for employees, it lowers the risk factor for opening shop in a shady, corrupt, but cheap area. Does anyone have any insight about the changing risk factors in other areas?

I'm also wondering what the commercial leases are doing for office space in Boston and where we rank as far as the burn rate to pay rent versus other areas.
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