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A rant on why MA can't keep its young workforce

 
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AgentGrn



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:36 pm GMT    Post subject: A rant on why MA can't keep its young workforce Reply with quote

The original link for the subject is here:

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070111/NEWS/701110384/1002/BUSINESS

I'm not part of the entry-level younger demographic, but I'll tell you why people are leaving the state, and why my wife and I are very strongly considering the same.

The high cost of housing is a no-brainer. A very mobile, trained, young workforce can set up shop virtually anywhere in the country. It's the most bang for the buck. However, I'm in my early 30s and have a 4-month old and we're itching for that place to put down our own roots.

But ... there's another 300 homes for Auburn, MA:

http://www.telegram.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070112/NEWS/701120592/1116/NEWSREWIND

Reading that article and they're supposed to be in the 400k range. And then these thoughts went off in my head:

* The state really wants to retain its young, educated workforce since it is absolutely key to the leading tech sectors that MA has been known for.
* Towns who are amicable to business are likely to welcome these companies with open arms (Bristol-Myers Squibb in Devens, for instance).
* Towns don't want any semblance of affordable housing because cheap homes don't add much substance to the tax base. Hence square footage requirements, acreage requirements, and so forth. Besides, they only want those high-paying tech jobs.
* Towns hate kids. Cheap housing invites young families from all sorts of backgrounds, but it's those damn kids they now have to find the funding to teach, so we can't have that. They'd rather keep the poor in some concentrated place like Worcester or Fitchburg or Dorchester.
* Towns love old people. But old people are okay since they don't have those bastard children so the over-55 communities are fine. Besides, grandpa is too weary to a petty criminal anyway.

So I've come to conclude that the state wants me for my skills, but as soon as I have a family, the burden is more than I'm worth. God forbid I _not_ want to live in a McMansion and be able to save some money. God forbid the garbageman ... might want to live in the town he grew up in. God forbid, I might want to leave near where I grew up.

Outside of a couple significant ties to the area, the Granite State is looking really good. Hopefully everyone here read this link:

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070109/NEWS02/201090364/-1/sports

Peter's got the money quote: “Many of the costs associated with schools are fixed expenses and don’t differ much because of the number of students,”

You'd never see this kind of thought printed in a Massachusetts paper.

-EndOfRant-
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vuky



Joined: 12 Nov 2006
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:01 pm GMT    Post subject: Re: A rant on why MA can't keep its young workforce Reply with quote

AgentGrn wrote:
So I've come to conclude that the state wants me for my skills, but as soon as I have a family, the burden is more than I'm worth. God forbid I _not_ want to live in a McMansion and be able to save some money. God forbid the garbageman ... might want to live in the town he grew up in. God forbid, I might want to leave near where I grew up.

Outside of a couple significant ties to the area, the Granite State is looking really good. Hopefully everyone here read this link:


I hear ya. I don't necessarily think Granite State is a silver bullet unless you are willing to commute large distances and offset your savings on housing with expenditures on commuting e.g. car depreciation, gas etc. This whole area is too expensive for most people.

That is why we have resigned ourselves to renting. We rented a house and we are paying about 40% (tax breaks included) less than if we bought the exact same house we are living in. Yeah I don't have as much power to change things in the house however that is not necessarily bad since I am not tempted to paint over the house Smile or invest in unnecessary improvements.

Good luck to you.
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BK
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2007 7:44 pm GMT    Post subject: Housing and Jobs.... Reply with quote

Housing is a problem in most attractive states. The credit bubble that has driven Housing prices in Boston has driven the cost of Housing all over the US (just to differing levels - depending on the local employment conditionas

Lac of Jobs is causing Boston Area to lose young people.

Companies that were formerly Headquartered in Boston:
John Hancock, Gilette, Polaroid, AD Little, BBNPlanet/Genuity/GTE Internetworking, BayBank , Putnam
Other companies: moving union manufacturing jobs out of Boston - Raytheon - take a drive down Seton street in Waltham - formerly home to a vibrant Raytheon Manufacturing facility - since Raytheon started in WWII.. It is now an office park and primarily empty.

When these jobs leave lots of small companies lose there contracts with the large employer. These small businesses employ the bulk of people in the United States - and they die quietly.

Perhaps Waltham will become Lawrence or Lowell within the next 20-25 years. The process of a community / area dying economically takes time - but, it happens. Take a drive through the Blackstone River Valley and you'll be triping through an area that was bustling with activity during the 1900-1940s. As the Mills left this area for Southern parts of the United States - this area began to die economically.

Best and only job markets in Massachusetts - Government, Medical, or Financial Services
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Nobody
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 2:51 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm in the same boat, 31 this month daughter just turned 1 after almost 8 years of work we're still in an apartment. It didn't help any that my wife and I had 60K in student loans to pay off after school, but there just isn't reasonable housing in MA. Family and friends keep us in the area. We still look outside however. It's pretty amazing but there are places in the US where you can still get a reasonable home for 125K, which is about 30% of a reasonable home here. I think housing will come down in MA now that the trend is for young families to leave, it's taking too long for some people to wait out.
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Some guy
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2007 6:37 am GMT    Post subject: Housing in Boston is expensive for a reason Reply with quote

At age 32 with a job in tech, a 2 year old, and an 844 square foot 1 bed in Brookline I accept that we could move somewhere else where we could get more house for our money (ok an actual house for instance instead of a condo) However, I only have to go about 1/3 of the way into Newton or even Watertown before I'm saying things like - where's the T? and how long to the museums from here? and do you think they have any decent Indian food out here (actually they do) however, my point is that once you get outside of 128 and definitely outside of 495, you are talking about a very different lifestyle, another car, long commutes, a paucity of ethnic food, and a bunch of kids who play in their backyards instead of forming a community in the parks. Boston is a great place to live and clearly worth paying a premium for.

In many discussions of innovation, one of the driving forces is constraint where people have to work with what they have. While friends of ours who live in Oregon can't understand how we could possible live with a 2 year old in a one bedroom apartment, we are actually very comfortable. We are more organized than we've even been, we use up fewer energy resources than we would if we lived in a single family, and we have great friends in the park who we can interact with because we don't have to mow the lawn. It's clearly expensive around here, but expectations are also very high - do you really need a 4,000 square foot house? Or can you live very comfortably in a 1000 square foot house.

Despite all that, I agree the towns in the burbs have clearly backed themselves into a corner by not embracing public transit, schools, and families. There are a few bright spots in that regard, although most of them are not in the "Core Boston" market (Westwood comes to mind) I'll say that Boston has too many 2000+ square foot houses and not enough 1000 square foot houses.
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AgentGrn



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:13 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Actually, if I could find something around 1200 sqft that was a 3BR and reasonably affordable, I'd be pretty content. That way my wife and I could still work in the office and give our son his own room. I'd also like a little bit of storage space for seasonal stuff, like Christmas decor, the air conditioner, my toolbox, etc. (We live in a 2BR apt. now and can close the office door so he doesn't have access to my computers.)

However, finding something that fits that criteria comes few and far between ... and even then they're way overpriced when held in comparison to an equivalent rental. We also have no desire for the "luxury" amenities ... i.e. cosmetic waste which adds no real functional value to the property.

From my survey of the market, there seems to be a lot of 800-1000 sqft 2BRs, which would need to be equivalent to my rent (why pay more to live in less space?) and then houses that are in the 2200+ sqft range which exceed what I want to live in, and what I want to pay. My wife also stays home with my son for now, and we're looking to fit within what my income can pay for sanely.

The value of city vs. suburban life is subjective, and for some is a matter of preference, but that's another thread. Wink
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BK - former Owner
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2007 2:14 pm GMT    Post subject: Some Guy - You are wrong about Public Transit - Reply with quote

Dear Some Guy,

A. Do you Realize what Tansit System in the USA has the Highest outstanding DEBT - you are probably thinking New York or Chicago -

Nope - The Massachusetts Bay Transit Authority has the most out standing Debt. So, there frankly isn't enough money to expand a mis-managed Financial disaster like the MBTA.

The reality is that the MBTA isn't charging high enough fares and they are over paying their employees. Some day this may change.

So, things should get interesting for the MBTA employees and riders in the coming years.

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2006/05/24/t_expansion_on_wrong_track/
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:23 pm GMT    Post subject: late bloomers Reply with quote

One thing I'd like to add to this topic relates to retaining our "late bloomers". A late bloomer is someone who starts to come into their earning years later in life. Late bloomers are either those adventurous types that were ski bums, bohemians or musicians or even those that chose advanced degrees and chose to chase knowledge and explore their minds versus money. Late bloomers can also be those who changed careers or delayed their careers to raise children.

We often get our best leaders and innovators from the "late bloomer" category. They add a ton to our culture. You know the old saying "It's better to waste one's youth than to do nothing with it". My fear is that if the cost of living is so hard for even the "programmed" people, we're going to lose a lot of our culture if this segment migrates away. We might become a boring place with all yuppies.

This is a threat to us because if all we know is how to take orders and jump in a minivan with mom and get shipped from organized activity to organized activity, our kids won't know how to organize a simple game of street hockey and have the inventive and collaborative spirit that leaders need. If we just become professional followers how will we be able to compete with India, Japan? We need that spark, we need that "up yours", and “I've got your tax on our tea right here".
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leaving boston



Joined: 26 Jul 2006
Posts: 11
Location: Rhode Island

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 12:32 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some Guy - who wrote a reply on Jan. 19, 2007, makes the ideal psycological and pragmatic case. Boston is a great place and worth it if you're willing to take advantage of it.

My wife claims to be a city person. She says she couldn't survive if she was stuck out in the suburbs. As we were discussing moving I asked, "when was the last time you took the subway?" or "when was the last time you watched a game at Fenway park?" " Have you been to the Museum of Art lately?" "Huntington Theater?" "How about Boston Public Library?" "Ice Skating on the Commons" "DimSum at China Town." "Sailing on the Charles?" "Roller blading along Mem Drive..."

The answer was, "no, not lately, that's not the point..."

This is like the person who buys a huge, 4x4, all wheel drive, all terrain vehicle and doesn't take it off the road. You ask, why he got it, and he says, "I like the flexibility." I think my wife would feel that she had flexiblity, and that was worth the premium.

If you're living in the city and making it worth the premium, then keep on renting, or buy something, and you won't regret it.
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AgentGrn



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2007 8:00 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Supporting my original rant. From Today's globe article (already in the list at http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2007/03/25/the_real_estate_generation_gap/?page=full)

Quote:
There’s just one problem, adds O’Connell: “Those homes are the most difficult to build, because the community doesn’t want them.” Wealthy homeowners who fund local school districts with their property taxes usually don’t want to open their neighborhoods to lower-income parents, who would reap the benefits of good schools while paying comparatively less for them in taxes. “Nobody,” says O’Connell, “wants to educate those kids.” In the long run, though, says Myers, opening up might be the only viable long-term strategy that could save the big houses. Better-educated kids grow up to be richer (read: home-buying) adults. In his new book, Myers writes that by paying for public education now, the rich can create a more prosperous class of home buyers for the future. So far, though, he says, “they don’t get it, even if it is in their best interest.”


You cannot hit the nail more on the head if you tried!
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guest
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:14 am GMT    Post subject: I concur Reply with quote

That article contains a very convincing analysis of the current situation. As one of those "high-income" Asian immigrants who has trouble affording the McMansions out in the suburbs, and the skyscraper-prices for a mini-condo downtown, I have been priced out of the market. I do not mind living in the city, since I grew up in one overseas, but the "affordable" areas I have visited have a rather unsafe feel about them. I think one has to go on gut-feel and I am sadly coming to the conclusion that Boston may not be a good long-term choice for me to have a family and settle down. Adding the cost of private school, and the higher crime incidence, I am planning to be on the lookout for a good opportunity elsewhere. I have told my friends, who were curious about relocating to Boston, to forget it and stay back.
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AgentGrn



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2007 12:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you've got no real ties to the city, then it's a good idea to be looking at opportunity elsewhere.

In suburbia, nobody wants to be a smaller reasonable-sized home, and trying to get something larger than a shoebox in the city is difficult. It's almost as if the supersize option isn't so much of an option ... probably fed by the "creative" financing products available.

I expect with the falling numbers early on in the season, some people are going to wake up from this field-of-dreams illusion. If you build it, they won't necessarily come.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:50 am GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Best and only job markets in Massachusetts - Government, Medical, or Financial Services


Correction, only govt, colleges, and health care. Financial services are on their way out with Putnam, Fidelity, and others leaving for cheaper pastures elsewhere.

Also, with the recent subprime blowout, we'll be seeing a crisis at State St in the intermediate near future. I think this area won't be a place to live in in a decade's time.
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AgentGrn



Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 82

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:06 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anonymous wrote:
we'll be seeing a crisis at State St in the intermediate near future.
So, is that the intermediate, or near future? I ask simply because I had a job interview there last week.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:19 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a link to the State St story at the end of the summer...

http://tinyurl.com/298aqn

Quote:
The London Times reported that Boston-based bank, State Street Corporation (nyse: STT - news - people ), had an exposure of $22 billion to asset-backed commercial paper conduits. In the wake of the credit debacle, a chill in the commercial paper market has rocked these investments, battering the financial institutions that hold them. Citing regulatory filings, the Times said 17% of State Street's assets reside in these off-balance sheet conduits.


And a follow up on CNN

http://tinyurl.com/3az3za

Quote:
State Street Corp.'s Advisors' SSgA Yield Plus has lost 9.5 percent of its value so far this year. State Street declined to comment Friday. The company also declined to deny or confirm a report in the Boston Globe last month, which quoted a letter to State Street clients alerting them to a 42 percent decline this year in the State Street Limited Duration Bond Fund for institutional investors.


I take it that this will take some time to filter through the various depts but I suspect that they'll be greatly impacted over the years.
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