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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 2:31 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

This debate, this weighing of the three types of lifestyles available to folks here in the Boston area: city, urban suburbs, and leafy suburbs may go through the minds of a lot of us. The dynamics of this balance change constantly so it’s good to hear from all fronts to get an overall feel. I'm baiting you a bit out of complete respect because I know you feel the pulse of the city better than most and honest to God, I do value and take stock in your posts. However, I actually do know a couple of women who lived/rented in the South End who told me that she and her roommate used to count the hookers walking up and down her street. Now they live/bought in a nice Dorchester condo and we’ve gotten a bit of a crime wave there. The fundamental I see supporting the hooker thing is that there are all the rich old divorcees that are populating the city. They are like the creepy old guys that troll around the younger dance clubs, strike out, and maybe have to take out the wallet to find love. Whenever you have a rich class getting richer you get this type of exploitation; In New Jersey, they are having hookers show up at golf courses. Do you think that these high end hotels don't have hookers going in and out of them all the time? I know that there was a guy sexually attacking women on the Esplanade. I'm just saying that when you have too much money flowing freely to an upper class and have a depressed lower class, you get more disposable income excess which fuels crime and a hungrier more aggressive organized crime network in the poorer neighborhoods. The stronger the appetite the rich have for say cocaine and hookers, the more the criminals will have a presence into the richer neighborhoods. It is happened before around the theater district and it may get bad again. Sometimes the rich are a bad magnet and a bad element to have. I would be calling the cops every time I saw something bad. When I lived in Waltham, several times, I had to go outside at 2:00 a.m. to yell at people that were honking their horns and yelling out the window. I found out later that the neighbor was a drug dealer. When the rich get richer and poor get poorer you get a lot of tension. When you see all the immigrants living in tough conditions it creates a lot of tension for them. Kids who see their parents working really hard to get nowhere and get disrespected by rich people often are the ones that will join gangs because for them to get respect they have to take it. The MS 13 gang is pretty bad. If rich people were respectful and had some value for human dignity you wouldn't have as much crime. When you're poor and you have nothing, all you have is self respect and sense of humor and some rich people have to even take that from the guy that carries their bags. This economic tension is what tears at our social fabric. The Boston anthem "Don't forget where you came from" matters, and if some snobs have to get their asses kicked to get it, so be it. What I'm saying is that we have economic tension which leads to social tension which means that the environment is electric and is predisposed to crime. Having a strong middle class is the best way to have a healthy balanced social fabric that doesn’t prey on itself. Because the rich don't see it yet because it is out of their view doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's kind of like why someone would pay $1M to live over a tunnel vent; chances are that the salesman didn't mention that little nugget.
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JCK



Joined: 15 Feb 2007
Posts: 559

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:10 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

john p wrote:
This debate, this weighing of the three types of lifestyles available to folks here in the Boston area: city, urban suburbs, and leafy suburbs may go through the minds of a lot of us.




Quote:
However, I actually do know a couple of women who lived/rented in the South End who told me that she and her roommate used to count the hookers walking up and down her street. Now they live/bought in a nice Dorchester condo and we’ve gotten a bit of a crime wave there.


South End is an interesting place. Parts of it are absolutely gorgeous and I see why places are commanding the prices they are. People who look at crappy surburban condos to draw their conclusions just aren't getting it. But, at the same time, you're also right. You go a couple blocks around the wrong corner and suddenly you're in the projects. I bet you could find a few drug dealers or hookers in those areas.

Quote:
The fundamental I see supporting the hooker thing is that there are all the rich old divorcees that are populating the city. They are like the creepy old guys that troll around the younger dance clubs, strike out, and maybe have to take out the wallet to find love. Whenever you have a rich class getting richer you get this type of exploitation; In New Jersey, they are having hookers show up at golf courses. Do you think that these high end hotels don't have hookers going in and out of them all the time?


If these are types who by and large are moving into these areas, then yeah, that's pretty bad. I'd like to think (hope?) that it's a more interesting/varied group moving into the South End.

Quote:
I'm just saying that when you have too much money flowing freely to an upper class and have a depressed lower class, you get more disposable income excess which fuels crime and a hungrier more aggressive organized crime network in the poorer neighborhoods. The stronger the appetite the rich have for say cocaine and hookers, the more the criminals will have a presence into the richer neighborhoods. It is happened before around the theater district and it may get bad again. Sometimes the rich are a bad magnet and a bad element to have. I would be calling the cops every time I saw something bad. When I lived in Waltham, several times, I had to go outside at 2:00 a.m. to yell at people that were honking their horns and yelling out the window. I found out later that the neighbor was a drug dealer. When the rich get richer and poor get poorer you get a lot of tension. When you see all the immigrants living in tough conditions it creates a lot of tension for them. Kids who see their parents working really hard to get nowhere and get disrespected by rich people often are the ones that will join gangs because for them to get respect they have to take it. The MS 13 gang is pretty bad.


The rich/poor dynamic does/can have its fallout. But you can't convince me that these areas would be better off it the rich packed their bags and moved to Lincoln or Sudbury. Or that rich divorcees in the South End are causing poor kids in Dorchester to join gangs. I think it's more lack of opportunity that causes these problems. The rich folks not caring may contribute, I don't think it's a/the primary factor.

Quote:
If rich people were respectful and had some value for human dignity you wouldn't have as much crime. When you're poor and you have nothing, all you have is self respect and sense of humor and some rich people have to even take that from the guy that carries their bags. This economic tension is what tears at our social fabric. The Boston anthem "Don't forget where you came from" matters, and if some snobs have to get their asses kicked to get it, so be it. What I'm saying is that we have economic tension which leads to social tension which means that the environment is electric and is predisposed to crime. Having a strong middle class is the best way to have a healthy balanced social fabric that doesn’t prey on itself. Because the rich don't see it yet because it is out of their view doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. It's kind of like why someone would pay $1M to live over a tunnel vent; chances are that the salesman didn't mention that little nugget.


I agree the strong middle class is key. We won't see much of a middle class in the urban areas as long as the quality of public schools is so heavily determined on a town by town basis. Ultimately, when people who like to live in a more urban area decide to leave after having kids, the schools are the main reason.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:53 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not carried away with these positions; I'm just trying to get a feel to tune the engine. I love walking around and really enjoy Boston and I was shocked when my friends told me that people rolled the window down and asked them "how much" as if they were hookers. Of course, I had a little fun with them and asked what they were wearing; they answered a yoga outfit... It's like I want everyone that has that happen to them to report the license plate immediately to the police to clear out this scum. There are supply and demand components to crime (a supply chain) and if the poorer communities can't sustain the vices like drugs or prostitution, the gangs will expand to the more affluent areas. If rich people have excess, many will have a decadent vice; they often get the Napoleon Complex when they get easy money as well. If easy money is available the supply will be there, that's the link between the rich and crime. Look at the Hollywood relationships; they more than not end up in divorce, cheating, etc. Even the Hollywood Stars and professional athletes are ending up in rehab and going back and forth to it. Paris Hilton thought nothing of driving drunk and putting others at risk. The rich are prone to becoming criminals when they get the egotistical attitude and the excesses. Decadence is decay and is the hardest form of decay to recognize because it has pretty wrapping paper.

I agree, the schools are the biggest concern for the City. Who wants to have their kid go through a metal detector to get into school?

Rich and poor can treat their community like a prostitute. The kids from Dorchester are joining gangs mostly because they hear their parents fighting all the time over money. The kids see their parents struggling and failing; they project their own lives and don't see another alternative other than the failing formula that their parents tried. When the promise of hard work leading to success withers some people make the wrong choices. Sure, for every Deval Patrick who gets the golden token there are hundreds of kids who don't. Gentrification is like an economic bulldozer. From one perspective you see things "cleaning up" but on the other side you see an affordability crunch. Domestic violence, crime waves all stem from the poor being squeezed; gentrification is a primary source of this fundamental in my view. When the party is over, you’ll see poorer people who had to overextend, and the global rich find the next flavor of the month city for their playground.
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john p



Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1820

PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2007 6:19 pm GMT    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://www.chicagofed.org/cedric/files/2005_conf_paper_session1_immergluck.pdf

foreclosures=boarded up buildings=crime

When people see physical disorder it attracts the worst elements because it communicates to criminals that people don't care and won't take action or call the cops if they see them break the law. Good police work now is more important than ever. People need to call the cops if they see anyone doing anything illegal.

I want to see the City flourish, but I want to see the people of Boston flourish not see the rich push them out. I don't see a city as just buildings, infrastructure and parks, it's the people in it too. You will get social disorder when a significant segment of the population is financially hanging on by a thread.
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